Depression in Unruptured vs. Ruptured

General
1

I just came from a BA Support Group meeting and heard something that surprised me, especially since it came from a two neurosurgeons. I had an unruptured aneurysm 2 years ago and my surgery was for a clipping (3) one on my left carotid and two on my left ophthalmic artery. At the meeting the neurosurgeons said, [basically - not a direct quote] "...well it is known that people who have unruptured aneurysms do not suffer the same as people with ruptured aneurysms and do not have any depression because the surgery is not that serious, basically they just tip the brain out and put a clip here.." I swear they made it sound like a manicure. The whole time I was sitting there shaking my head. Nobody was disagreeing with them. So either it was just me or everyone else who had an unruptured aneurysm was thinking the same thing and too shocked to say anything also.

During my recovery I struggled with some cognitive issues, personality changes (very short tempered) and severe headaches. I pushed myself to get back to work and perform at the level I was at before surgery. Plus we have to deal with people telling us (like these three) that our surgery was not that serious (luckily my neurosurgeon was not like that and helped me understand that I needed long term help which put me on the road to a full recovery). For me, all of this led to some minor depression in trying to get back "the old me". When I finally was able to get control of the headaches and accept the cognitive issues as "the new me" most of the depression subsided.

I would be interested to know what members of this group think. Do you agree or disagree with their comment?

2

Hi Carol,

So ...I've undergone a coupla' clippings......huh...and these doctors say this type of surgery is no big deal?

My opinion is... these doctors must be HIGH (In other words, I completely disagree!!)

Peace, janet

3

Carol...thank you so much for sharing this...

I think the parts of our brain...the lobe(s), which arteries, which cranial nerves are affected, the size, our overall health, and the quality of the medical providers... is so critical to our recovery.

I definitely disagree with their comment...just researching on our brain is overwhelming...then, the lobes, the cranial nerves...on and on...and, whether open surgery/clip or the new advanced minimally invasive coils/stents...I have definitely promoted the Two Books here that are on the BAF website...

Thank you for bringing this open...

Pat

4

I so disagree Carol...but again "How do they know if they never went through clipping, coiling, PED, etc.,?" I always feel those who make dumb comments...would not feel this way if it were their mom, wife, daughter, sister, father, brother, etc.,

This angers me...and I am sorry you had to hear this information...there ignorance is sad...

~wishing you a good day today ~ Colleen

5

Carol...I thought of something else...when I was in NICU...and finally came out of induced coma...(and I didn't have a rupture) hmmm? Anyways, the nurse in charge of the case said to my husband ... her face on the right side is dropping and eye is closed...she called the surgeon when he finally came to my room...he told my husband and me..."I don't know how that happened, it wasn't from her surgery"..."Hello"....you can see you hit a nerve...

6

Lord, I feel as if I just had a group hug! I am so glad so many people I respect on this forum agree. I was shaking my head so vigorously that I thought it was going to fall off :) I wanted to say, well if it is not that serious come here and let me cut your skull open and "tip your brain out" and put some foreign object inside and see how you handle it !!! This was at a "SUPPORT" group and the neurosurgeons were guest speakers. The group is usually wonderful and I really like the group but this meeting was not very "supportive". Last night made me so thankful for my own group of "neuros" and how wonderful and understanding they are. Thanks all for your thoughts it really helps to hear I was not alone, which is why I love this group. Carol

7

I can't believe the neurosurgeons are talking like this still! Back in 1980, I was told clipping was no worse than getting y0our appendix out!!!!! Imagine, when I woke up parallyzed, took years to become human again after losing speech, balance no walking etc....... Someone should have stood up & said something. I would have!

8

Cheryl...

I am curious, too...

Did he/they show you the images of the one embedded in the skull?

Did he say which artery/which area of skull...like the temporal bone or the sphenoid bone or?

I (vaguely) know the carotid and/or internal carotid...passes thru/by the sphenoid bone...which is the cavity of the pituitary, etc...etc etc...

I was told (more vaguely by the doc) that one of the coils was "scarred into the dura"... and, not at all near the real aneurysm...that in itself makes more than a chapter...

Another noted "gliosis"...of which I need to "ask the doc" ...for clarification of what I may have learned...

When will you have treatment?

Prayers for your decision and results...

Pat

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Your "hello"...jogged my dilbertonia...

One of my records was a f/up angio (and more)...defines certain things as equivocal...and, that included the same type of treatment as yours...You had an induced coma for 8 days...I was only under coronary care between the initial diagnostic angio and day of coiling well coded to stents... off-label and off-record...except for billing...

I wish I had enough active cranial nerves...so I could feel/sense/hear...

Pat

10

Hi Sue, yes he was one of the surgeons speaking. There was a guest surgeon speaking though. What amazed me was that nobody was disagreeing and I guess was too chicken to say anything. I do have to say that sometimes I have a focus problem and for a bit I thought it had to be me and that I must have heard them all wrong. What I heard was them say was that depression, and other issues, were not as prevalent in people who had clippings for unruptured aneurysms as in people who had ruptured aneurysms because the surgery for a clipping was not as complicated as the surgery for a coiling and obviously nothing is as complicated as a ruptured aneurysm. But the one surgeon actually went through the motions with the model of taking off the skull and showing how you just tip out the brain and put a clip in and tip the brain back in. I wanted to laugh (come here let me try). He was some specialist from University Hospital (?) up in Newark.

11

its absolutely true im permanently disabled from a ruptured b/a and i am in constant pain in my joints and nerve endiings and my entire left side of my body is numb and in pain, i have not heard this from any non- ruptured in two years here so yes we are different. Also different is i get no headaches but all open surgerys do it seems. But on the other hand they shouldn't make light of your situation and certainly that's not my intent either. i read in mayo i think that we all suffer ptsd and depression to some extent so i strongly disagree with drs comment there, sorry they upset you with their pointless and cold comments- i don't blame you, i would be upset too, take care , feel better everyone~

12

Carol, unbelievable. I don't think their brain would like having anything done to it just likes ours haven't. Rather it is clipped, coiled, PED or the newer flow diversion. There are a lot of emotions that we go through with this as well. We have all been on that roller coaster ride and no one can downplay any of it without all of us jumping on the band wagon here and supporting one another. Too bad all the survivors didn't jump up at once - but there again, maybe the deficits from their surgeries kept everyone from saying something, worried that maybe they just happened to hear it incorrectly.

This makes me angry to say the least.

Take Care,

~ Carol

13

Hi Carol.

I am so shocked by your post! I had my unruptured aneurysm on the right carotid artery coiled 9 months ago. I am still not OK! My neurosurgeon told me beforehand, that this was a complex and high risk surgery, which they only considered when aneurysms were around the 7 mm size, as the risks of the surgery were actually higher than that of having a bleed! He told me he knew people who had died having the procedure and also that I could be left severely disabled afterwards I was to go home and decide. The neuroradiologist also informed me there was a risk of a stroke, blood clot, heart attack or being left severely disabled during the coiling procedure. I was told if all went well, recovery would be two weeks! I have still not fully recovered. One nurse on the high dependency ward said this to me " All you have really had is an anesthetic" . I wish!

Following my surgery I have had stroke like symptoms, involuntarily movement of my left limbs, visual disturbances, blurred vision, loss of vision in my left eye, headaches ( never experienced headaches before my surgery) extreme fatigue, balance problems, short term memory problems, in conversation sometimes, I will repeat the same word over and over before my sentence will flow again, I will say an inappropriate word and what I read, like a headline or a sentence is totally different when I look at it again. I cant bend without having pain and pressure in my head and for days I will just feel like my head is being compressed on both sides!

Eve x

14

Hi Pat,

What you posted caught my attention, because my aneurysm was on my right carotid artery (now coiled) but I have a pituitary tumor, which I was told was a Rathkes cleft cyst mimicking a tumor at first and now they are not sure and having my scans checked. I didn't know how near my puitary gland was to my aneurysm coils until it was mentioned in my last neurologist appointment! Maybe that's contributing to my symptoms??

Eve x

15

Thanks Sue. I think I am going to say something and imagine everyone standing there with me :) I'll be speaking for all of us. It doesn't matter what kind of surgery you had, TBI is TBI and until you have been through it first hand and know the outcome and what you are going to be dealing with you really cannot speak on it, no matter how many medical degrees you have. Sue, I still believe he is someone you need to at least "interview" as your doctor. I think this may actually be a great interview question you can ask him. Feel free to tell him that you heard people (and you can use my name if you want) were upset at the meeting when the surgeons started saying this LOL. Hugs right back to you, Carol

16

Eve I hear you and feel what you are going through. I think the scariest part for me for all the risks was the risk of blindness. My main aneurysm was on my left ophthalmic artery and they said it was so big that it was almost impossible that I would have any vision in my left eye after surgery. When I was going into the OR, I looked at my husband and wondered if I would every see him that way again. Here I am a bit blurry sometimes but my vision is back and my neuro-ophthamologist keeps telling me to go light a candle. She says my NS is a miracle worker, and I agree. It took me a good 18 months to recover, at least in my opinion, from the headaches, balance, dizziness, anger (okay maybe that is still an issue, I just cannot figure out who I am angry at), and all the other crap that goes with this.

We are in a special club and although not one of us wish to be a member. I think we can all agree we have some fantastic members and if I had to be in a club I could not imagine others I would rather have with me than this group! Thank you all for your support and unconditional caring, Carol

17

I think what they said was irresponsible at best. I HATE when doctors generalize things (i.e. you shouldn't be experiencing that symptom, etc.). Unless one of the presenters was an aneurism survivor, they truly don't know anything about the emotional fall out....period!

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Carol, I couldn't agree with you more. If someone had told me way back that i'd be a member of an anuerysm support group (who ME?? WTF?!) I'd thought they were bonkers, but you know what, if i have to be a member in any group, this is the ONE I want to be in.

Huggs ((( ))) !

Janet

19

wow Eve I am sorry you are suffering so, I am a little naive regarding the effects of non-ruptured thank you for the enlightenment, we mustn't stereotype- we are all different but do share the same lousy issues, take care, keeping you in thoughts and prayers!~~~~

20

Eve...We all have so much to share...down to the pituitary; other members have addressed their thyroid, cardiopulm issues, vision (numerous issues w/it); hearing (the inner ear)...dry eyes, dry mouth...thirst, sleep problems...GI issues...

For Pituitary...starting with "the lobe"...

Temporal lobe: has the anterior temporal lobe beginning at the skull inward; the medial temporal lobe is essentially centrally located...above the sphenoid bone/and the dura wrapped pituitary area... (below it the thyroid)

Limbic system anatomy: thalamus, hypothalamus, amygdala, hippocampus, the lateral ventricle and 3rd ventricles (4th ventricle is below in midbrain/brain stem area)...

(May remember, our John Wright in UK 05/2012 "follow up to feeling cold" was told by his wife's doc...the hypothalamus controls our body temp..)

Hypothalamus: nuclei...at base of brain...near the pituitary gland...connects w/many areas(regions) of the brain and controls (guides/regulates): hunger, thirst, emotions, body temperature and circadian rhythms (sleep patterns)...

Pituitary: hypothalamus also connects to this; other terms: ptuitary stalk, aka infundibular stalk, aka infundibulum first reaches the posterior pituitary; a fraction lower, begins also the anterior pituitary side by side to the bottom of the pituitary...

The minimally invasive procedure(s) can leave massive damage...I have all the symptoms...remaining, some declining, others expanding over a decade...

I have no expertise...have attempted to put the regional terminology in sequence...and any one can select their own terms/areas (med and/or symptoms) to research to enhance their questions to their docs...A suggestion is search the term...then add: anatomy and search again...

The one thing I do so agree with is that "it does NOT relate to your aneurysm"...and, we could write chapters...

Eve...hope this data may help...I may attempt to add data on the cortices...later on...

Please keep us updated...hugs...Pat