Supplements, specifically Vitamin C

[Survivor2]

Hope this reply isn’t too long, but I wondered if my experiences could help.

I had a brain bleed over five years ago in 2016. After coming out of hospital, I had a lot of stiffness, pain around the top part of my body, including the neck, and base of the skull, as well as headaches.
I also felt weak and sometimes didn’t get up until around dinner time. At the same time I was experiencing symptoms that the doctors couldn’t explain. These included, numbness, pins and needles, an occasional tightness in my chest, as well as a sensitivity to light and certain pitches which when built up really increased my aches, pains, anxiety and nerves.

I went to the neurologist, they just said that some of these issues were normal after a blead, but didn’t tell me what I could do. The doctors couldn’t tell me what was causing this, or what to do. All they were going to prescribe was migraine, NSAIDS and anxiety tablets, as well as tablets for wind, gas that made me much worse. I decided to do a bit of research, and get another view point by talking to alternative healers.
But because they weren’t “Scientifically Proven” and recognised by the NHS I couldn’t do it. When requesting a nutritional expert via the Dr, they didn’t have one for my issues. I felt stuck.

I also try to avoid being anywhere near Wifi, electrical appliances for long periods as it sets my anxiety, stiffness, headaches and pains off after so long, and have noticed lately that new certain vibrations under my feet start me off again having unbalanced issues, so if I can I just use calming techniques up to a certain point, and knowing my level. If I can I just get out of the area in question I will, if not, I continue breathing, calming techniques…

Since then, I have been getting much better and have also been teaching myself simple Physio: Tai chi, and doing breathing techniques from the alternative, then after saving up went to Tai Chi classes, (avoiding specific actions and positions).

Hope this may help, and your pains go away.

[Moltroub]

This is interesting but I think you may have ascorbic acid (Vitamin C in its most natural form) confused with Sodium Ascorbate, but I’m not an RDN…Ascorbic acid is found in all citrus for example

All the best
Moltroub

[Survivor2]

This is what I was told from the qualified nutritionist:

Ascorbic Acid can be made in a lab, and the only way to know the nature of the vitamin C in supplement form, is to look at all the ingredients:
Citric Acid: Vitamin C (lemons, limes, etc). If no fruit listed very high chance in being lab based.

Ascorbic Acid: Vitamin C. If it is from a food source this will include all the benefits of the fruit, veg etc which will include, bioflavonoids, fiber, flavonoids etc and all of the natural benefits from food. If it is Ascorbic Acid (Lab based) Vitamin C, it may only have Ascorbic Acid listed, possibly other fillers included, and an odd fruit to add the impression of natural vitamin C or flavonoids etc. This has been the tactic for the supplements industry, and not many people realise, the true ingredients in their supplements.

Another way to look at this, is the strength of the supplements. The body can only hold so much vitamin C, (about 250mg at a time), what it can’t hold it will expel it via the toilet. If you see Vitamin C: Ascorbic Acid 1000mg + it has to be lab based, as natural food does not provide this amount of Vitamin C in one capsule/tablet. The nearest to natural Vitamin C if not from food is L-Ascorbic Acid.

The supplement industry have separated one part of natural vitamin C (Ascorbic, or Citric Acid), and made this in a lab at higher doses than that is found in nature. If you need a high dose of Vitamin C, this can be ok, but as I have been told (it is not natural, and will only have one part of the overall benefits of natural Vitamin C, it may not work as well as a lower dosage of food based vitamin C.
This is why some Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin C supplements can cause stomach and other issues especially if taken at a very high dose for long periods of time with other fillers added…
Yes, these are different types of Vitamin C: Sodium Ascorbate etc, but as you said this is lab based as well.

When purchasing my vitamin C I read the label and order natural food based vitamin C supplements.
These may be more money but they are food based and organic: Natures Plus Source of Life Garden 250g per capsule of food based or Camu camu capsules with nothing else but the fruit (nearly highest form of natural vitamin C apart from a Kakadu plum, many times higher than an orange). These supplements are certified organic. I have also discovered homemade Sauerkraut is the highest form of Vitamin C from food, as well, although I haven’t tried it myself.

The nutritionist that advised me stated that even some Drs and Nurses don’t always realise the ingredients of the supplements in the food industry that may cause more harm in the long run due to added fillers, lab based, preservatives, Es added, Dicacalcium phosphate, Silicon Dioxide, Magnesium Stearate etc.

Believe me, I was shocked when told this, but after reading the ingredients she was right. Look at the ingredients in Vitamin Supplements if you take any. Please can you educate other people as to the truth behind some supplement ingredients as I am trying to help yourself and others.

All the best.

[Kcsunshine]

Hello, @lany_m I think it’s wonderful you want off the meds. I also don’t like being on mine. I have learned any meds can help you thru on recovery. I have been open minded. So I didn’t like and some helped me thru that 30 days. I work with my doctors and slowly see progress. What I’ve learned you can do the meds to help certain issues but then I also say okay this is enough. I am very curious about natural remedies. Please give an update when you can. Thanks for sharing

[Survivor2]

I must admit, I am no Dr, but because of my experience, via health related issues from a brain blead, living with an aneurysm and not being on any tablets, I wondered if I could help in any way as I am not on any meds.
It is probably best to speak to your Dr about this, but as I have found out via the qualified nutritionist that helped me, only a small part of ad Drs training includes food/nutrition and natural cures.

If I can offer any advice, do as much research as you can, and double check the info. There are many natural Drs on Yutube, and you can usually tell by the comments from bloggers whether they are any good. These include: Dr Axe, Dr E Berg who are natural Health Based Drs, (Dr E Berg being a qualified Chiropractic Dr who gives a lot of alternate healing help).

Hope this helps.

[Moltroub]

I’m wondering how a nutrionist becomes qualified in the UK @Survivor2 here in the States, we have Registered Dietician Nutrionists that go to University, pass their classes and then pass the State exams.

I’m glad you have found help for you with a holistic approach, remember what works for one doesn’t always work for others and we are not a group in which we prescribe. We do describe our experiences so we can helps others learn.

All the best
Moltroub

[phoenix33]

@Survivor2 and @Moltroub here is a link to a review article from “Nutrients” published in 2013. Old data, but not sure there are a lot of researchers working on this topic. From what I am reading, there are no data to suggest one formulation is better than another, and that we cannot extrapolate ex vivo and in vivo data as they are often times not aligned. I guess eating an orange does seem to be healthier. I find the efficacy in the common cold to be interesting and helpful, and that there were no differences between the two interventions. I always take Air Borne and some extra Vit C. when I am coming down with a cold…

Synthetic or Food-Derived Vitamin C—Are They Equally Bioavailable?

Here is excerpt:
"The comparative health effects of supplemental versus food-derived vitamin C will only be determined through the use of appropriate and well-designed studies. Determination of the physiological effects or health outcomes of intervention with synthetic versus natural vitamin C will depend largely on the endpoints measured. Only a handful of comparative intervention studies have been carried out to assess specific physiological or health endpoints. Guarnieri et al. [89] investigated potential protection of mononuclear leukocytes from supplemented individuals against ex vivo oxidative DNA damage. Although they found comparable vitamin C bioavailability between a single portion of orange juice (containing 150 mg vitamin C) and a synthetic vitamin C drink of the same dosage, they showed that only the orange juice protected the leukocytes from ex vivo oxidative DNA damage [89]. However, how closely ex vivo oxidation of DNA resembles events occurring in vivo is debatable and results could also vary significantly depending on the type of oxidative stress. Johnston et al. [76] compared plasma lipid peroxidation in individuals who had been supplemented with either orange juice or synthetic vitamin C (~70 mg/day) for two weeks. They found comparable vitamin C bioavailability and a similar reduction in lipid peroxidation with both interventions [76]. Several studies have assessed the effects of synthetic and natural vitamin C, or vitamin C in the presence of bioflavonoids, on the common cold. Two earlier studies showed a lack of an effect of vitamin C (~200 mg/day), with and without purified bioflavonoids, on the prevention and cure of the common cold [117,118]. Another study indicated that synthetic vitamin C (80 mg/day) and orange juice both decreased the symptoms of the common cold compared with placebo, but there were no differences between the two interventions [119].

[Survivor2]

To be honest, I don’t know how a nutritionist becomes qualified in the UK, but I looked for the letters after their name and a certificate to prove this.
The nutritionist I saw had many letters, ( I can’t remember what they were), but I know she was also a gut expert as well as a well qualified nutritionist. Her knowledge helped me realise what was causing my symptoms and problems.

I went to a well known “Alternative Health Shop” they helped me as much as they could, and when they were allowed, they gave me a list of well qualified alternative health providers in my area. This is how I discovered the nutritionist who helped me. Now they don’t do this. A friend of mine, visited them last year, and they weren’t allowed to give any other persons, or any alternative contact details out for healing etc. They just had to refer them back to their Dr.

I had many issues and was put on Omeprazole for high stomach acid, which made me worse, and after reading the side effects 1 in 10 people had the effects that I was already having, for 1 in 10.000 people it could cause inflammation of the brain (I had just had burst aneurysm, and another stable aneurysm as well). After a week of getting worse I came off them, went to a well known Health shop, and they said take Fennel, Aloe vera, or Spear mint if you have “Low Stomach Acid” (but the Drs told me I had “High Stomach Acid”.
They gave me the list of alternatives. I discovered through contacting the alternative, that many people who are told they have High Stomach acid it is actually “Low Stomach Acid”.

Yes, you may need tablets, supplements to help, but check this with a qualified person and they may sort out your problem if they look for the cause. If not, like me, you may be going backwards and forwards to the Drs with no results apart from being given more tablets by treating only the symptom.

I am not saying ignore Drs, and I know they are very good Drs out there, but the nutritionist explained me that not many Drs are not trained in the way the gut properly works, and they don’t believe in a leaky gut which I had, managed to cure, and feel a lot better for it.

I am wondering if my experience would help others who have been through the mill (as so to speak) like me, in having to take their health into their own hands and get another alternative view point, when you know something is wrong, but what ever you are prescribed, given, it doesn’t seem to help, until you used your own intuition, which I believe in a lot more now.
I believe your body will tell you if anything is wrong by letting you know in many subtle ways, it is knowing how to read these symptoms, issues and getting the right help .

Thankfully I got the right help, and wouldn’t be alive now without the skilled hands of the neurologist, surgeon/s that saved my life, the Drs that tried to help, and the alternative who explained what was the cause of my other ailments which Drs couldn’t explain and said weren’t connected.

Yes, everyone has different ways of looking at things, and as you stated what works for one doesn’t work for another, but I felt as if I was getting no where with the Drs, I knew there was something wrong, but I felt as if the Drs were trying to cure the symptom not the cause of the problem.
The Drs were going to put me on tablets for: Depression/Anxiety, Blood Pressure, Gas/Wind and NSAIDS for pain. Thankfully I am not on any tablets at all, only on a specific diet and supplements.

I was advised only to take tablets if their is no other cure, and try food/natural first. She also advised me to look at all ingredients in supplements, food from shops etc. and explained that the preservatives, fillers, Es, Sodium Dioxide, Chemicals etc added to many food, supplements etc bought in shops and even tablets, or supplements from Drs etc. can build up causing toxicity (depending on the ingredients, chemicals included), in the body which makes your internal system work more, placing it under more pressure, which lowers your immunity, and makes you open to other issues, tablets etc, A vicious circle…

[Survivor2]

Thankyou for the review from “Nutrients” published in 2013, I have read it, and it may be accurate via its findings, I don’t know. I am only only going by what the alternative told me, and personally, it seems to make sense.

The reason that I was told to have only organic/food/ natural based supplements for Vitamin C with nothing added and no man made, lab based supplements was because, (unknown to me previously before I talked to the nutritionist) I had a leaky gut which was causing many issues that the Drs couldn’t explain, and were just treating the symptom.
When I discovered the issue/cause, I couldn’t take the chance in adding more toxicity to my already pressurised internal system via the after effects of a brain blead, aneurysm on the other side, and toxicity build up inside via the tablets I was on after coming out of hospital so many months etc.

From my experience, I personally believe food based supplements especially if organic, have the multiple beneficial molecules, vitamins, minerals, antioxidants etc. that my body needed at the time, and still do now, although not as badly. I avoid those that have fillers, lab based ingredients, fillers, Es etc I also cannot take a chance in building up any more toxicity from the additives, Es, chemicals and other things added to supplements including Ascorbic Acid if it is fake Vitamin C which would lower my immunity and gradually my health.

You can’t patent Nature, and I believe only parts of the beneficial, nutritional and health abilities of food are only now being realised by scientists, which may have been known in the alternative, nutritional circles for ages.
Tests may be done as above in the excerpt, but personally, it depends on how these tests are being done, by whom, who is organising them, carrying out and arranging the results, are all the results taken into consideration, how is the test carried out, and what were the ingredients in the tests, supplements, what else did the participants have, take etc?

Many tablets, cures are based on nature, or specific molecules, chemicals etc found in specific plants, which can have outstanding results in the medical field, but what else is added to them for preservation and other reasons, if it is or isn’t natural, and how does this effect the result, short or long term?.

From my experience, many types of food with vitamin C, have additional benefits: Antioxidants, flavonoids, bioflavonoids etc, which as I understand have many health benefits including anti inflammatory, helps the immunity and the body in many other ways from its full range of natural benefits, which I needed. Lab based, may be based on one specific part of the food ie “Ascorbic Acid”, for Vitamin C, missing out the other beneficial natural molecules from true organic fruit, food etc. To me the benefit of the supplement also depends on the other ingredients added, including any other fillers, preservatives, binding agents, or nutritional value of the supplement, food etc.
This is the way I look at it anyway, after talking to the alternative, and I feel a lot better for it… I also have a habit now of looking at all ingredients in anything I buy, just to make sure nothing is hiding.

If I feel as if I am starting to go down with a cold, I have lemon in hot water with ginger and a bit honey, do myself a chicken broth for lunch, etc and have a Olbas Oil bottle to sniff, or just get a Vics rub if I feel a bit nasal or chesty. However, I usually just stick my head over a bowl of hot water and inhale the steam sometimes adding a drop of something, and it seamed to cure me. Thankfully, I haven’t had to use this remedy for about 3 years, as I seem to have been ok not having colds.
I believe that if you have a good immunity, you can avoid or cure a cold before it takes hold by helping your body naturally fight it. Personally, I have never had the flu vaccine, I just build my immunity up. This is why I believe in food based Vitamin C (organic). I admit, it costs more, but it seeks to be working.

I also believe that if you work with your body, and understand it, providing it with the nutrients and things it requires, it is amazing what it can do, by even starting to repair itself after what has happened to many of us, and where it couldn’t, such as, when I had the blead, thankfully the surgeons saved my life.
This is why I am making sure I do all I can to avoid it again by taking care of myself as much as I can, and why I take the natural Vitamin C etc via food based supplements with nothing added.

I guess, we all have to do what is needed or required to help our individual circumstances, and help ourselves, and whatever works we will stick to. Lookily I seem to have found what works for me, hopefully others including yourself have found, or will find what works for them as well.

[Survivor2]

I don’t know the extent of your issues, but I presume that it is something to do with an aneurysm, and related symptoms. All I can suggest is to see a qualified alternative if possible, or nutritionist, or good Dr that is also trained in Mineral, Vitamins, nutrition who knows you that could help.
You could also ask the Dr if they are treating the problem from the root source or just as symptom (as I found out from the alternative gut expert and nutritionist). I was being treat for the symptoms individually, not the root).

I was placed on an extended Mediterranean/MIND based health diet, (Eat the rainbow), avoid sugar and eat as if it has just been picked or fresh, (avoid prepacked, adulterated, additive, refined etc food).
Take Goat milk, yogurt, Sheet yogurt (natural “Live bacteria” and it has A2. (Avoid cows milk and anything with cows milk in it, (it can be inflammatory and cause gut issues). A1, it is more processed than Goat, Sheep milk). (My mother has had Psoriasis for years, taking many prescription creams, that didn’t work, took goat milk with me, avoiding cows milk, began eating a Mediterranean Diet, and after a week it started to clear the psoriasis). My mam wished, she had known this years ago.
The nutritionist Informed me about the Gut and Brain connection, (anxiety, depression etc, could be caused by gut issues). Skin and Gut issue, (psoriasis (skin issues) and possible relation to gut issues).

The Vagus Nerve (Wandering Nerve), travels from the base of the skull to the neck, down the spine to the gut and spreads via other branches off to various organs, (this was out of wack after I took ill and collapsed when I had the blead, and was severely weakened).

Due to the shock to my internal system (leading up to the blead, during and after the blead), I had a bacterial imbalance, (this was the cause of other symptoms I was experiencing), and the Drs didn’t realise it.

I also discovered that I needed, or was: Magnesium, Vitamin Bs, C, D, E, K2, Calcium, and Omega 3 deficient, (wasn’t tested for any vitamin, minerals by Drs), until I asked by the nutritionist to get an overall complete test, (although the result came back in the normal category). After talking to the nutritionist, she stated that the RDI is an average for everyone, everyone is not individual and every person has their individual need for specific nutrients, and after my brain blead, issues and symptoms I need the extra boost. I listed my symptoms to her again:
The tablets that I was on up till then, had lowered some of my vitamins, minerals, increasing the imbalance and were starting to build up toxicity in my internal system.
She informed me that my symptoms related to a need for these vitamins, minerals which could help. (These vitamins, minerals are known to help my issues, but have to be nutritional/natural food based supplements wherever possible, preferably organic, none GMO with no additives or other lab based ingredients).
She asked how my Magnesium was tested, (via a blood test). She then informed me that only 1% of the magnesium is stored in blood, the other 99% is via cells and many other parts of the body, (If a blood test was taken for Magnesium, it would be a false positive result). I was asked to get a hair follicle or other Magnesium test to obtain a more accurate result, (the Dr said I didn’t need it). Thankfully I saw my own Dr who knew my history, who gave me a proper test, and guess what? I was severely low in Magnesium).

My advice is, do your own research, get a good Dr, qualified alternative, someone that knows their stuff. If you are not happy, get a second opinion.

Tablets, may be handy first after a certain issue or operation, depending on the severity of the problems, but unless you obtain the real cause, and treat it correctly, it could be treat with tablets, which you could get addicted to, which could gradually build up toxins in your system, as well as gradually lower minerals and vitamins which can have adverse results and side effects, causing other issues to be treat with other tablets, (a vicious circle).

[phoenix33]

As complementary therapies or supplements are typically not prescribed by a healthcare provider, you should inform all of your physicians and maybe your pharmacist, that you are considering alternative therapies. This includes but is not limited to: patches, pills, ointments, elixers, oral suspensions, oils, and things that are smokable.

[Survivor2]

The complementary therapies I took were food based via a qualified nutritionist, dietitian.

When I asked a Dr if there was anyone else I could see, that could help me such as a nutritionist, or alternative that could help, or see if I could see other forms of help, I was told that he couldn’t authorise it as they were not verified in the NHS, and may not be “Scientifically Proven”, and that I had to carry on taking the tablets. I then asked the same Dr if I could see a “Qualified Nutritionist” via him to help me with my issues, and the reply I got back was that they don’t have anyone available who was qualified in my issues.
I then checked alternatives, saw my own Dr, mentioned to him this lady and he said to me that he knows this person is well qualified in many things, including areas that could help my problems, but unfortunately as he is under certain rules, and as she is not listed as a qualified Nutritionist via NHS, he unfortunately couldn’t advise me to take her help, especially for supplements, although no other person with her experience at the moment was available from NHS sources.
In our conversation I mentioned to him that if he doesn’t mind, if she is known to be well qualified by him she must be good, so I may have no alternative than to contact her and see if she can help, so I did inform my own Dr what I was doing to be honest with him.

Thankfully, now I am not on any medicines, as I used my initiative, as I knew I wasn’t getting much better, and that my body was saying something that I didn’t and the Drs I saw didn’t seem to understand, apart from my own. I did research and obtained a properly qualified nutritionist who helped me via food and diet/nutrition.

I am not saying to anyone ignore your Drs, but get someone qualified if you do, and inform your own Dr as I did.
I saw him a year after for a check up: everything was ok, and I was on no tablets, and I am still on no tablets, so it can be done in some cases, if it is done correctly.

I have also realised that you have to make sure that your are being treated for the root cause not the symptoms as I was.
Although I had suffered a brain blead, and have another aneurysm I was experiencing symptoms from this and other issues, which unknown to me were partly connected. It was the dietitian, nutritionist that explained this to me.

[Peter]

Just want to thank the participants of this thread for their contributions to this subject of interest of mine. Prior to the recent coiling of my unruptured intracranial aneurysm, I was ingesting a regimen of certain vitamins and supplements for the past few decades. Since the procedure, however, I was asked by my Interventional NeuroRadiologist to stop taking ALL of them, which puzzles me to no end. I am looking forward to a scheduled visit with my INR in January where I will ask how each supplement is contraindicative to the post operative requirements of the coiling procedure.